It has been eight days since both the Celtics and Cavaliers announced the completion of a trade that sent Kyrie Irving to Boston in exchange for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic, and the Nets’ 2018 first-round pick. However, more than a week later, we still can’t classify the deal as “completed.”
As first reported last Friday by ESPN, the Cavaliers expressed concern after their own doctors conducted a physical exam on Thomas’ injured hip. That concern has pushed the Cavaliers to re-engage the Celtics about acquiring further compensation in the blockbuster deal. Although it took a few days for the two sides to make contact again, that reportedly happened on Tuesday.
Here’s a breakdown of what we know about the situation, and when we can expect resolution:
Didn’t the Cavs already know what condition Thomas’ hip was in? Why are they having second thoughts now?
According to multiple reports, the Celtics were forthright about Thomas’ condition, and the Cavs don’t feel as if Boston tried to deceive them. However, Cleveland doctors are more apprehensive than the Celtics’ doctors are about Thomas’ ability to make a full recovery and avoid re-aggravating the injury.
As Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN wrote on Tuesday, the two teams shared medical information before completing the deal. However, Cavaliers officials “have made the case” that the Celtics understated the scope of Thomas’ injury, and were overly optimistic about his return timetable. For their part, the Celtics believed that included the Nets’ 2018 first-round pick without any protections made up for the uncertainty surrounding Thomas’ health, Wojnarowski writes.
Thomas spoke to ESPN on Tuesday and expressed plenty of optimism about his recovery, suggesting he expects to return as strong as ever and adding that nothing he’s heard from doctors and hip specialists has given him any reason not to believe that: “It’s out of my control. I just want to talk about what I can control, and I know that this [hip] won’t be a problem into the future.”
Still, according to ESPN’s Zach Lowe, sources say that if Thomas’ recovery doesn’t progress quite as smoothly as hoped, there’s at least a slight chance he could miss most of the 2017/18 season, which would be a disaster for the Cavs. That’s why Cleveland is seeking further compensation.
So what are the Cavs looking for from the Celtics?
An earlier report indicated that the Cavs may ask for Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum to be included in the deal, but that was a non-starter. Wojnarowski’s latest report suggests that Cleveland is “determined” to land an extra first-round pick from Boston, and the Celtics have no shortage of extra picks they could offer. In addition to all their own future selections, the C’s also have future first-rounders from the Clippers, Grizzlies, and either the Lakers, Sixers, or Kings.
Still, Boston figures to resist just handing over an extra first-rounder, since those picks would be valuable currency in another trade down the road. The discussions between the Celtics and Cavs have also included second-round considerations, sources tell Wojnarowski.
What happens if the Celtics and Cavs don’t agree on the added compensation?
In that scenario, the Cavs would have two choices: Either accept the deal under its original terms or void it entirely and go back to the drawing board. Even though the two teams announced the trade last week, it could be rescinded by the Cavs if they determine that Thomas failed his physical.
When is a decision due?
The current deadline is Thursday morning at 9:00am central time, so the Cavs and Celtics have 24 hours to work something out. However, if both sides agree to it, that deadline could be pushed back.
Do the Cavs have any good alternatives for Irving if they back out of this deal?
As many NBA reporters have written this week, both the Cavaliers and Celtics have incentive to figure out how to make this deal work for both sides. Thomas, Crowder, and Zizic likely wouldn’t be overly thrilled to return to Boston after the C’s traded them away. The situation would be a little different in Cleveland, since Irving explicitly requested a trade, but that 2018 Nets selection is probably the best draft pick the Cavs could acquire in an Irving deal, so giving it up would be difficult to swallow.
In a story for ESPN today, Zach Lowe explored the Cavs’ alternatives to Boston’s offer for Irving, suggesting that the Celtics’ package is probably the most attractive one out there, even taking into account some uncertainty regarding Thomas’ hip. Here are the other potential trade partners Lowe discusses:
- Bucks: Per Lowe, Milwaukee offered a package centered around Khris Middleton and Malcolm Brogdon, but didn’t put their 2018 first-round pick on the table. Even if the Bucks were to do so, that pick figures to be a mid to late first-rounder.
- Suns: Phoenix has been unwilling all along to include Josh Jackson, and may not give up its unprotected 2018 first-rounder, so there’s “minimal” Irving buzz surrounding the Suns.
- Timberwolves: They’re a wild card until Andrew Wiggins signs the five-year max extension on the table for him, according to Lowe.
- Nuggets: Lowe views Denver as the strongest potential threat if the Celtics deal falls through, since the club could offer Wilson Chandler, Jamal Murray, and at least one first-round pick. The Nuggets’ 2018 first-rounder might not be a top-10 selection, but the West will be competitive and Denver isn’t a guaranteed playoff team.
- Other likely lottery teams like the Kings, Hawks, Pacers, and Bulls don’t appear to have made offers for Irving, per Lowe.
What’s the most likely outcome?
The Cavs haven’t really tipped their hand yet, but it’s hard to imagine rookie general manager Koby Altman deciding to go back to square one on Irving. My best guess is that the Cavs and Celtics will eventually agree to include an extra piece in this deal to get it done.
The Celtics’ 2018 or 2019 first-rounder would make some sense. Boston expects to be a top-five team, so losing its own first-round pick in one of the next two years wouldn’t be a huge loss — especially given that many of Boston’s recent picks in that range haven’t panned out (see: James Young, R.J. Hunter, and Jordan Mickey). The Cavs, meanwhile, would pick up another asset they could use to try to trade Iman Shumpert or to package for more immediate help, if they so choose.
Knowing he’s injured is one thing. The timeline for return to normal basketball activities is entirely different and subjective. This could be he returns after a month, two months, or is Bo Jackson, done for good.
Reports that Celtics were forthcoming with all medical information a first round draft pick is overpay. Make it a 2nd round pick in next couple of years and everyone move on.
One problem with just making it a second-round pick is that the Celtics have traded their second-rounder for the next two years (to OKC in 2018 and Memphis in 2019). Each of those traded picks has 31-55 protection, so maybe the Cavs could get it if it lands in the 31-55 range. But given how bad the East is and how good we expect the Celtics to be, there’s a pretty decent chance it falls between 56-60.
further out the better IMO, nothing but an extortion payment to put this behind C’s
Cavs are in a tough position. On one hand they really need Crowder and that pick and on the other hand IT’s hip probably won’t hold up into June.
It will be a 2nd round pick if anything. They gave up the Brooklyn pick unprotected to make up for IT’s uncertainty. Cleveland will coast the 1st half per usual and they can let IT come back slowly towards the 2nd half of the year. IT is not the prize, it is that pick and I don’t see them giving it up. It is too important for their probable rebuild.
No they did not give them the pick because of IT’s health. They gave it up because it’s what the Cavs demanded from any team that wanted Irving. They wanted a starter that can help them win this year, a young nba player that has potential and a high 1st rnd draft pick.
Did you not read the article it said the only reason the pick ISN’T protected is because of the hip it’s been said all along that is the reason they gave up the nets pick and if you look at most of those other trade scenarios none of them include a high first some not even a first
And I’m telling you that in ANY trade scenario the Cavs were looking for two main ingredients. A) A star caliber player that can help them maintain their competitiveness now. B) A potential top 5 pick.
Now it can be your point that the only reason Ainge agreed to give up the Brooklyn pick was because of IT’s health but MY contention is that if they HAD NOT been willing to, or any team for that matter, then there would be no deal to discuss. Maybe that’s the reason it took Ainge so long to agree to it. Respectfully saying, do you understand that point?
Crowder ain’t chopped liver! He is a starter, plays hard every minute and plays D….which the OLD Cavs need. It is a square deal….but Mr. Dilbert may screw it up…he has a habit of doing that recently!
On the Celtics Crowder is a starter. On the Cavs, he isn’t. He plays the same position as LBJ.
Seriously, I’m not arrogant but reading some of these comments makes me wonder is it fanboyism or something else.
Yes….the Cavs were given his medical reports. The reports were not done as of August “whatever”. It was done in the recent past (month ago, two, three, four, whatever). If the medical team of the Cavs did their examination a week ago and determined that THE INJURY HAS NOT HEALED SINCE THE LAST MEDICAL EXAM DONE BY THE CELTICS then the Cavs have legit concern.
Why is that hard to understand? Unfortunately, the teams can’t do in-person physicals until the deal is agreed upon. Why should the Cavs, who have a mandate to contend for a title, give a healthy Irving for a damaged IT THAT MIGHT BE OUT LONGER THAN EXPECTED!!!.
Here’s a quote from IT himself:
In an interview with ESPN on Tuesday afternoon, Thomas was forceful in his belief that the labrum injury that ended his season in the Eastern Conference finals against Cleveland would not have a long-term impact on his career.
“There’s never been an indication that I wouldn’t be back, and there’s never been an indication that this is something messing up my career,” Thomas told ESPN. “Maybe I am not going to be back as soon this season as everyone wants me to be, but I’m going to be back, and I’m going to be the same player again. No doctor has told me anything different than that.”
Now focus on these words specifically:
“Maybe I am not going to be back as soon this season as everyone wants me to be,
That’s the whole freaking point of contention. He may not be back as soon as “SOME” would like him to be, Geez Louise. If you can’t understand the significance of that then you’re either a Celtics fan or simply hate the Cavs. Silly. Smh.
Wow you really think Lebron and Crowder won’t play significant minutes together? Don’t flatter yourself with your own arrogant assessment of other people’s relationship to basketball while making silly analysis.
What was the comment made by “SD”? It was that Crowder is a starter. My exact point is that on THE CLEVELAND CAVALIERS Crowder is NOT a starter. He is a back up for LBJ who needs to play at least 35 minutes a game, maybe even more, without Irving or an IT on the sidelines wearing a suit. There will be some instances where Crowder plays with Love, Tristan or JR Smith on the bench but it probably won’t amount to 30 minutes a game. So NO, a deal with Crowder playing more minutes than IT and a 1st rnd pick is a insufficient return for Irving.
Learn to read and comprehend what ppl say and not just what you want it to say.
When Rose was acquired, before the Irving situation was public knowledge, it was thought that he would be a back up. That’s reflective of what Rose signed for monetarily. He WAS a starter on the Knicks and he could’ve been a starter on other teams who needed a starting PG. But with Irving or a healthy IT he’s a backup playing backup minutes.
Being a backup isn’t reflective of his talent but more a defacto result of how he would be used.
So again, a backup player and the 1st rnd pick is NOT enough compensation if IT will miss a lot more time than previously expected.
You can’t talk to this guy he knows all he just likes to run his mouth none stop and he is the only one right and everyone else is the stupid ones
Period after “guy”. The word should be “non-stop”. And it should be everyone else “are” the stupid ones.
That’s an example of an “a-hole” post. Us gathering to talk sports and voicing opinions based on some semblance of fact or reason is what we should be doing instead of trolling.
I apologize for any offended by my passion for talking sports. I don’t think I’ve been offensive to anyone here tho.
The claims you attribute to other commenters can be applied to your comments.
Your view is from the Cav’s perspective others are not. There is no right or wrong just varying opinions. Why is that so hard to understand?
Everyone here has a right to voice their opinion. However, there are inherent facts that I am pointing out.
Fact: IT was examined by the Celtics at some point following his injury in June.
Fact: The Celtics sent the Cavs medical report to examine.
Fact: The medical team saw something that gave them pause.
Those are facts and are simply NOT privy or subjective to “opinions”. Your opinion means nothing to me. My opinion means nothing to you. Facts are what’s relevant. And it seems that some here insist on ignoring facts for the sake of benefiting the Celtics.
I even heard Max Kellerman blame this on Dan Gilbert and I’m like wtf does HE have to do with a team doctor’s informed opinion as to the status of IT’s hip?
Seen this situation (star has injury that maybe requires surgery heading into a contract year) play out dozen’s of time, and it’s almost never good for the team. Void the deal. A remote draft pick (no guarantee it’s that high with all the tanking teams in the East), Crowder and Zizic is a feeble package, particularly for a team that should be focused on this year as its last chance to contend in a while. This deal has he look of a Celtics’ steal, selling high on both IT and the Nets pick.
Blackmon….he should have stayed in school. No degree…no job in NBA….bad outcome. Crean probably gave him some more bad advice after doing nothing to make him better for 3 years!
Who is Blackmon… ?
Well, if IT really missed a chunk of the season, a second round pick won’t to anything. Is swapping IT with another player a possibility?
There’s no other contract that lines up it is what it is maybe they take M. Morris but I don’t think they will so it’s this trade with a 2nd or 2 or nothing and everyone goes back unhappy
I wish the Cavs had the balls to walk away from this deal. I’d be willing to do that if there’s real concern about how long IT would be out or IF he will even play in 2017-18. Screw the Celtics. Without IT the deal then becomes Crowder and the 1st rnd pick and that’s not enough for Irving at all. And I’m sure LBJ won’t be happy with Crowder being the only piece contributing to 2017-18 in place of Irving.
I would include another first rounder, maybe Memphis or Boston but pull Zizic from the deal.
Seems as if Cleveland wants the whole enchilada for a guy they HAVE to move.
It could even be two picks.
The only reason Zizic is in the deal was to make the money work so they can’t it has to be a player at 1.5+
Exchane zizic for rozier, if salaries work?
An outstanding article by ZacLoweESPN. A few quibbles:
I thought the Nuggets wanted to trade Faried, not Chandler, and would not mind parting with Mudiay. It is odd that the Denver-Cle combo did not yield something firmer.
Denver placed 9th and will be hardpressed to match since Minnesota will rise. Most teams below them for 2017 (Sac, LAL, Dal, NO, Phx, Min) have improved. LAC 4th, Utah 5th & N.O. 7th might fall, but enough? Denver should have a top 10 pick with odds similar to Brooklyn.
Lowe did not address having to meet Irving in the playoffs when evaluating the “haul” that Haultman got. It’s a critical error that could compromise James’ motivation to stay in the East. Numbnuts that say James is leaving regardless are not part of the math.
Speculation that the #1 Brk pick was the #1 piece is countered by comments by the principles, and the ruckus over the hip. A high pick is perhaps a resource with scarcer availability than a good PG but that’s it.
Okay that’s not all of it… rookies are dirt-cheap and Gilbert just had piblicly-funded stadium renovations turned down.
You’re underselling the Nuggets a lot. Paul Millsap was a huge get for them, and Jokic and Harris are only getting better. If Murray becomes a star, which he looked like toward the end of last year, this is a legit contender. They could really use Crowder if the Cavs-Celts deal falls through tho.
Sounds like the Cavs could have used Murray who was probably available… oh well. He was getting mentioned as better than I remembered.
Denver could start winning by tightening up the D. Harris played good defense when he played for Izzo; that was a strength for him as a prospect; but his stats are terrible now for that. Long-limbed Barton is uneven on D.
It’s kind of historic though for Denver to favor the offense.
Sounds like the Cavs just want to fleece the Celts for everything they can get. If I’m Boston, knowing the Cavs need to move Kyrie, I’d stand firm.
I think it can be said that the Celtics want to move IT just as much if not more. Consider the clubhouse distraction and the possibility of a Celts back court devoid of a Irving, Thomas or Bradley level of talent. Who would the Celts starting guard be for 2017-18? Cavs can peddle Irving elsewhere even if it’s a lesser value than the Celts. BUT if IT’s medicals are as bad as they might be then the deal really boils down to Crowder and the 1st round pick which can be beaten elsewhere.
I wish the Hawks would throw n offer out there