New York Notes: Achiuwa, McBride, Hart, Johnson, Hayes
Precious Achiuwa struck an optimistic tone regarding his hamstring injury. In a video posted by New York Basketball (Twitter link), the Knicks big man called it a “minor setback.”
“We’ll get back better, stronger. It’s just a minor setback,” he said. “We still have the same agenda. Gonna come back a lot stronger…We have a goal to accomplish this year.”
Achiuwa has a left hamstring strain and will be reevaluated in two-to-four weeks.
We have more on the New York teams:
- Miles McBride and Achiuwa are the logical alternatives for the starting five if the Knicks choose to make Josh Hart a sixth man, according to Peter Botte of the New York Post. With Achiuwa injured, the Knicks could temporarily pivot to Jericho Sims if they want to utilize a bigger starting lineup. Hart expressed some uncertainty at the end of the preseason about his role in New York’s new-look lineup.
- Cameron Johnson, who is entering the second year of a four-year, $94MM contract, is a logical trade candidate. Johnson has tried to put that possibility out of his mind as the season opener looms, the Nets forward told Zach Braziller of the New York Post. “I’ve been able to feel comfortable in what’s going on,” he said. “And even with the uncertainty, it’s not like an uncertainty where I don’t think that our staff here, our front office here, has a lack of trust in me. So I feel confident in this group. I feel confident going forward. And I’m going to compete for this team. And it’s not even on my mind, really.”
- The Nets waived Killian Hayes on Saturday but he’ll stay with the organization, at least in the short term, Botte adds. Hayes, who didn’t appear in any preseason games due to a hip injury, will rehab with the team’s G League affiliate, the Long Island Nets. He is expected to play for them after he clears waivers.
Knicks Notes: Kessler, Bridges, Roster, Rotation, Hart
Before reaching a deal with Minnesota to acquire Karl-Anthony Towns, the Knicks made “multiple” runs at Jazz center Walker Kessler, league sources tell NBA reporter Marc Stein (Substack link).
According to Stein, the belief is that Utah sought at least two first-round picks in a deal for Kessler, who was repeatedly linked to New York earlier in the offseason. The Knicks theoretically could have met that price, but it would have cost them their last two remaining tradable first-rounders (the Pistons’ and Wizards’ protected picks). They also could have offered one or more pick swaps.
It’s unclear if the Jazz didn’t like the first-rounders the Knicks had left to trade (both could turn into second-round picks if they continue to fall in their protected range) or if New York opted against meeting Utah’s asking price.
Either way, the Knicks ended up pivoting to a bigger deal for Towns. That blockbuster involved a couple key rotation players in Julius Randle and Donte DiVincenzo, but allowed the Knicks to keep one of their remaining tradable first-rounders — they still have the Wizards’ top-10 protected 2025 pick after sending Detroit’s first-rounder to the Timberwolves.
Here’s more on the Knicks:
- Within the same Substack article, Stein confirms that Knicks forward Mikal Bridges plans to wait until after the 2024/25 season to work on a contract extension with his new team. ESPN’s Bobby Marks recently reported that Bridges would likely postpone extension talks because he can’t sign for more than $61MM over two years at this time due to extend-and-trade rules. During the 2025 offseason, he could get up to approximately $156MM over four years.
- James L. Edwards III of The Athletic takes a closer look at what the Knicks’ opening night roster and fall rotation might look like, predicting that Landry Shamet and Ariel Hukporti will earn the final two spots on the “15-man” roster, which only actually has room for 14 players due to hard cap limitations. With Mitchell Robinson expected to be sidelined until at least December, Edwards anticipates that Miles McBride, Shamet, Precious Achiuwa, and Jericho Sims will be the top reserves behind the starters, with Cameron Payne as the 10th man.
- As an aside, it’s worth noting that while teams are generally required to carry at least 14 players on standard contracts during the regular season, the Knicks don’t necessarily have to reach that threshold by opening night. Clubs can carry just 12 or 13 players for up to 14 days at a time and for as many as 28 total days during the season. So New York could wait until two weeks into the season to promote Hukporti (or Kevin McCullar) to a standard contract.
- Knicks forward Josh Hart saw increased responsibilities on offense during the 2024 postseason due to a series of injuries affecting the roster, but with Bridges and Towns in the mix, he’s prepared to take a step back on that end of the court and let the club’s more accomplished scorers shine, as Stefan Bondy of The New York Post writes. “At the end of the day, my job isn’t to go out there and score 20. It’s not to go out there and force things offensively and try to make things happen,” Hart said. “My job is to rebound, defend at a high level, offensively kind of be a connector, get into the lane and find guys for open shots, get the rebound, push the pace and get us easy transition buckets. … At the end of the day, I don’t think any team’s won without several people sacrificing. If that’s me sacrificing points, I will gladly do that.”
Knicks Notes: Shamet, Aller, Towns, Hukporti
After joining the Knicks on a non-guaranteed contract last month, Landry Shamet appears to have the inside track on a roster spot, writes Stefan Bondy of The New York Post. The veteran guard has impressed coach Tom Thibodeau in training camp and may become a valuable member of the bench squad.
“I don’t make the final decision on that, but I’m basing it on what (Shamet’s) done on the floor. He’s really done well,” Thibodeau said. “The second unit, as I said, I’m anxious to see him as well because I’ve seen what they’ve done in practice and they’ve really done well together as a unit. So I want to see that in a game situation. But he’s done a really good job. He has really good chemistry with (Cameron Payne), and then when you put Deuce (Miles McBride) into that, they’re very fast. You can play with a lot of speed.”
Thibodeau also mentioned Precious Achiuwa and Jericho Sims as members of the second unit, and that group will likely get most of the rotation minutes off the bench.
Bondy points out that New York has two roster openings to fill, but can only afford one veteran because of apron restrictions. The other vacancy will go to one of the team’s two-way players, either Ariel Hukporti or Kevin McCullar.
There’s more on the Knicks:
- Team capologist Brock Aller was the unsung hero of the Karl-Anthony Towns trade, Bondy adds in the same piece. Aller is being recognized throughout the league for his intricate maneuvering to make the Towns deal work under cap restrictions, as well as the trades that brought in Mikal Bridges and OG Anunoby. “Brock has been terrific,” Thibodeau said. “It’s been great execution of a plan. It’s five years in the making. It’s accumulating the draft capital and looking at the opportunities and going step by step and figuring out the things you can do.”
- Towns and Bridges are both expected to be on the court when the Knicks open the preseason Sunday night in Charlotte, according to Steve Popper of Newsday. Thibodeau plans to use all his regulars in the first game to give them a chance to get used to playing together. “I think for all of us just playing with each other these training camp days is important to the camaraderie and continuity,” Towns said. “Every single day I see ourselves making better and better plays so we’re doing a good job right now.”
- In a mailbag column, Ian Begley of SNY tabs Hukporti as the two-way player most likely to be converted to a standard contract because he provides depth at center.
New York Notes: Towns Trade, Knicks, Simmons, Nets
The Knicks are still working through the details of their blockbuster trade for Karl-Anthony Towns, which has yet to be finalized. Why did they choose to go all-in on the 28-year-old big man?
For starters, president of basketball operations Leon Rose was Towns’ representative when he was the head agent at CAA, notes Ian Begley of SNY.tv. Knicks executive William Wesley is also close with the Towns family, per Begley — clearly there’s an affinity between the two sides.
As Begley writes, the Knicks view Towns as an ideal complementary piece to their core roster, particularly on offense with Jalen Brunson. Towns’ presence should create more driving lines for Brunson and make it more difficult for opponents to trap him.
Begley confirms New York has coveted Towns for some time, but trade talks with Minnesota didn’t pick up steam until the Knicks signaled a willingness to include Donte DiVincenzo in the package. Begley isn’t sure why the Knicks changed their mind — they were opposed to dealing DiVincenzo for the majority of the offseason.
According to Begley, DiVincenzo wasn’t thrilled with the idea of playing a reduced role this season after he had a career year in 2023/24. Still, Begley doesn’t think that had much to do with New York’s decision. He speculates that Julius Randle‘s contract situation (he can be a free agent in 2025 if he declines his 2025/26 player option) and Mitchell Robinson‘s injury absence were likely bigger factors.
Here’s more on the two New York-based teams:
- While all eyes will be on Towns with training camp about to begin, Stefan Bondy of The New York Post believes Mikal Bridges is the “most intriguing” player the Knicks acquired this offseason. Bondy projects a starting lineup of Brunson, Bridges, Josh Hart, OG Anunoby and Towns, with Miles McBride likely the team’s sixth man. With major roster changes and some players coming off injuries, Bondy expects the Knicks to look sluggish in preseason.
- Ben Simmons‘ health is the biggest storyline to watch for the Nets as they enter training camp, writes Brian Lewis of The New York Post. Simmons has appeared in just 57 of 246 regular season games over the past three seasons — including 15 in 2023/24 — and is coming off a second back surgery. However, he’s fully cleared for camp and has been one of the team’s standouts in pickup games, sources tell Lewis. Second-year big man Noah Clowney and offseason acquisition Ziaire Williams are two other players who have played well in informal games ahead of camp, Lewis adds.
- In a pair of stories for The New York Post, Lewis examines the other Nets storylines ahead of training camp and provides a rundown of their 20-man roster, which is one player shy of the offseason limit.
Knicks Notes: Center Options, Wing Depth, Brunson, Randle
Even if Mitchell Robinson can manage to avoid serious injury this season, he may not be the center the Knicks want on the court once they reach the playoffs, John Hollinger and Fred Katz of the Athletic write in a discussion about the team. Hollinger notes that while Robinson’s skills as a rim protector and offensive rebounder are valuable, New York was at its best with the pick-and-roll game and switchable defense of Isaiah Hartenstein, who signed with Oklahoma City in free agency.
Although he doesn’t expect the Knicks to add another center before training camp, Hollinger believes trade options will become available as the season wears on. He suggests the Suns‘ Jusuf Nurkic as a possibility if Phoenix gets off to a disappointing start or the Trail Blazers’ Robert Williams III, who may be a third-stringer in Portland behind Deandre Ayton and lottery pick Donovan Clingan. Larry Nance Jr., who was recently traded to the Hawks and has an $11MM expiring salary, could also be considered.
Another option that Hollinger and Katz discuss is experimenting with Julius Randle at center. Katz states that coach Tom Thibodeau has resisted using Randle as a small-ball five, but New York’s strong perimeter defense can make up for the lack of a shot-blocker.
There’s more on the Knicks:
- Wing depth has become New York’s best attribute since the trade for Mikal Bridges, Hollinger states in the same piece. He cites Bridges, OG Anunoby, Josh Hart and Donte DiVincenzo as “automatic starters” for most teams, while the Knicks also have Miles McBride to handle minutes at two guard. Hollinger expresses concern about backup point guard, where McBride hasn’t shown an ability to create offense, Cameron Payne is with his fourth team in a little over a year and second-round pick Tyler Kolek isn’t likely to play much as a rookie.
- Jalen Brunson has been selected as captain for the upcoming season, the Knicks announced (via Twitter). Brunson, who recently signed a four-year, $156.5MM extension that’s well below his market value, becomes the 36th captain in team history and the first since Lance Thomas during the 2018/19 season. “Jalen is a natural born leader, and I am confident he will continue to represent our organization, fans, city and his teammates with the same heart, grit and class he has displayed each and every day since he came to New York,” team president Leon Rose said.
- The Knicks should work out an extension with Randle before the start of the season as a reward for his role in turning around the franchise, David Vertsberger contends in an SNY column. Randle is eligible for a new deal that could be worth up to $181.5MM over four years.
New York Notes: Thomas, K. Johnson, Kolek, Thibodeau, Knicks
In an interview with Michael Scotto of HoopsHype, Nets guard Cam Thomas said he’s been impressed with new head coach Jordi Fernandez so far. Fernandez is currently with the Canadian national team as it prepares for the Olympics in Paris later this month.
“It’s been good,” Thomas said of adjusting to Fernandez. “He’s very smart. He’s very detailed. I think he’ll be good for our young team. I think we’re going the young route, so that’ll be good for us because he’s all about the details and pushes us to be great. I can’t wait to actually get to work with him.”
Thomas also discussed a number of other topics, including his contract situation. The 22-year-old, who led the team in scoring in 2023/24, is eligible for a rookie scale extension until the day before the 2024/25 regular season begins. He would be eligible for restricted free agency in 2025 if a deal isn’t reached.
“You definitely think about it, but it’s not something I’m pushing for,” Thomas told Scotto. “Whatever happens with the organization happens. I can’t control that. The only thing I can control is going out there and playing the best basketball I can play. Whatever happens will happen. I’m not really pressed on it. … I want to keep improving my game to get ready for next season.”
On a related note, Thomas recently switched agents and is now represented by Alex Saratsis, according to Brian Lewis of The New York Post. Saratsis’ agency, Octagon, announced the addition of Thomas to its client list earlier this month.
Here’s more from the NBA’s two New York-based teams:
- Lewis’ story is primarily focused on former first-round pick Keon Johnson, who finished last season on a two-way deal with the Nets. An unrestricted free agent who is still just 22 years old, Johnson has impressed with his defense, improved shot and decision-making in Summer League action, per Lewis. The Nets have one standard roster spot and a pair of two-way openings available, and Johnson thinks his play can translate to real NBA minutes. “I mean, I feel like everything that I’m doing out there is completely translated to what I would be doing on the main court, as far as playing defense, spacing the court and making open shots,” Johnson said. “And then whenever I do have the ball in my hands, just making simple reads. I feel like every day in Summer League I’ve kind of been showing that, and hopefully after Summer League, I’ll be able to do the same thing.”
- Knicks rookie guard Tyler Kolek isn’t lacking for confidence, writes Stefan Bondy of The New York Post (subscription required). The former Marquette star, who was a second-round pick last month (34th overall), has impressed during Summer League action. “I wouldn’t say I’m surprised [how well I’m playing],” Kolek said. “All the work that I’ve put in has gotten me to this point. I’ve been in a lot of games in college. I’m not some first-year rookie that’s just come in playing 10, 12, 15 games in college, maybe only averaged 20 minutes a game. I’ve played a lot of games and I’m really comfortable on the basketball court.”
- In the same story, Bondy says there’s still an expectation that Knicks head coach Tom Thibodeau will sign a contract extension. Bondy is surprised a deal has yet to be reached, though he acknowledges New York has had a very busy offseason so far.
- Fred Katz of The Athletic takes a look at the Knicks‘ roster following the signing of Cameron Payne, writing that the team now has one of the deepest pool of guards in the league. According to Katz, the Knicks view Miles McBride as more of a two than a one, which is why they added Kolek and Payne. Like Bondy, Katz has also heard from sources that Thibodeau is “more likely to extend than not.” Katz also examines Precious Achiuwa‘s free agency, suggesting that a reunion is still possible, but it may behoove both sides to wait and see if any sign-and-trade opportunities arise.
FA/Trade Rumors: Okoro, Pistons, Lakers, Lopez, Grant, Knicks
The Pistons are a rival suitor to keep an eye on for Cavaliers free agent forward Isaac Okoro, reports Chris Fedor of Cleveland.com (subscriber link).
As Fedor explains, Okoro’s former coach J.B. Bickerstaff is being hired as the Pistons’ new head coach, and the rebuilding squad could afford to be more patient than Cleveland in developing the wing into more of a two-way threat. Additionally, Fedor cites Okoro’s “toughness, competitiveness, tenacity and defense-first credo” as important traits that would help Bickerstaff instill the kind of culture he wants in Detroit.
Okoro received a qualifying offer from the Cavaliers, making him a restricted free agent and giving Cleveland the ability to match any offer sheet he receives. Still, the Pistons will have a significant amount of cap room this summer and could make life hard on the capped-out Cavs with an aggressive offer sheet.
Here are a few more rumors from around the NBA:
- The Lakers have been exploring potential trade scenarios involving D’Angelo Russell, Jarred Vanderbilt, Gabe Vincent, and Rui Hachimura, according to Jake Fischer of Yahoo Sports, who hears from sources that Bucks center Brook Lopez is among L.A.’s potential targets. Meanwhile, Anthony F. Irwin of LakersDaily.com has heard the Lakers have had conversations with the Trail Blazers about forward Jerami Grant.
- It was no coincidence that the Knicks signed Miles McBride to a contract extension on December 30, allowing him to become trade-eligible on June 30 following a six-month waiting period, writes Stefan Bondy of The New York Post. However, that move was more about giving them team flexibility and was made prior to McBride’ breakout. Although New York needs to add salary to its Mikal Bridges trade with Brooklyn to avoid a hard cap at the first tax apron, the club has “virtually no interest” in moving McBride as part of that deal, says Ian Begley of SNY.tv.
- The Knicks have had some discussions about trades involving big man Jericho Sims, according to Begley. Sims’ minimum-salary team option was picked up before Saturday’s deadline, so he’s on an expiring deal entering 2024/25.
Knicks Notes: Dadiet, Hartenstein, McBride, Brunson
The Knicks selected French wing Pacome Dadiet with the No. 25 pick in the 2024 draft. Still just 18 years old, Dadiet spent last season playing for Ratiopharm Ulm in Germany.
Given his age and New York’s financial situation — the team will be hard-capped at the $178.7MM first tax apron if the Mikal Bridges trade is finalized as currently constructed — it would make sense for the Knicks to try and stash Dadiet overseas for at least one season, delaying when he signs his rookie scale contract. However, Dadiet said he plans to play in the NBA next season, which may complicate matters (Twitter link via Fred Katz of The Athletic).
Assuming he signs for 120% of the rookie scale, which virtually every first-round draft pick does, Dadiet would project to earn $2,720,040 in 2024/25. That figure might sound relatively modest by NBA standards, but the Knicks are nearly at the first apron already with just eight players under contract.
Here’s more on the Knicks:
- As Ian Begley of SNY.tv writes, the Knicks gained a little financial wiggle room by trading the No. 26 pick (Dillon Jones) to Oklahoma City for five future second-rounders. However, they’ll still need to add about $4.4MM in salary to the Bridges deal to avoid being hard-capped at the first apron — doing so would instead hard cap the Knicks at the second apron ($189.5MM). That would give New York the ability to offer Isaiah Hartenstein his Early Bird max of $72.5MM over four years. Still, Begley says Hartenstein is “unlikely” to return unless he’s willing to take a discount, since he has become the top free agent center available after Nic Claxton agreed to a four-year, $100MM deal with Brooklyn.
- Sources tell Fred Katz of The Athletic that the Knicks have indeed been exploring ways to add salary to the Bridges deal to avoid the first apron hard cap. New York contemplated including Miles McBride, but the team has since “shied away” from that idea, according to Katz, who also hears the Knicks have become “pessimistic” about their chances of re-signing Hartenstein.
- Speaking of McBride, the 23-year-old guard underwent surgery on his right pinky toe this week, the Knicks announced (via Twitter). McBride is expected to resume basketball activities later this offseason.
- It would be far less lucrative than if he were to wait a year, but a league source tells Katz that Jalen Brunson is still considering signing an extension this offseason. Brunson will be eligible to sign a four-year extension worth approximately $157MM this summer. Waiting until 2025 would make him eligible for a deal worth up to a projected $270MM over five years.
Atlantic Notes: Brown, Bokmeyer, Anunoby, McBride, Hart
While the Raptors didn’t trade Bruce Brown Jr. again after they acquired him from the Pacers this season, that might change this offseason. The Raptors have until June 29 to exercise Brown’s $23MM team option for next season and, according to Doug Smith of The Toronto Star, a handful of sources think that Toronto will pick up that option and trade Brown quickly, rather than waiting until the 2025 deadline.
Trading Brown would give the Raptors some leeway when it comes to talks with free agent wing Gary Trent Jr. According to Smith, the sentiment is that Toronto won’t start the season with both Brown and Trent on the roster. Trent is still just 25 and his outside shooting ability might make him more appealing in the long run.
The Raptors acquired Brown as part of the trade that sent Pascal Siakam to Indiana. He averaged 9.6 points in 34 games with Toronto after registering 12.1 PPG in 33 games in Indiana. Despite the slight dip in production, Brown is still viewed as a valuable rotation player with defensive prowess and positional versatility.
We have more from the Atlantic Division:
- The Nets hired Justin Bokmeyer to their front office as their new director of basketball operations, Mike Vorkunov of The Athletic reports. This move is likely related to the Hornets hiring away Ryan Gisriel, Brooklyn’s former executive director of basketball and business operations. Bokmeyer worked in international basketball operations before going to the NBA. He also helped guide the NBA Academy program and assisted in launching the Basketball Africa League.
- OG Anunoby, who is dealing with a hamstring injury, has missed the past four games for the Knicks. According to The Athletic’s Fred Katz (Twitter link), head coach Tom Thibodeau said Anunoby’s health is “basically the same.” The forward is doing some light on-court work, but it remains unclear when exactly he will return.
- Miles McBride began the season on the bench, but the Knicks are now calling on him to handle the most important defensive assignments, Newsday’s Steve Popper observes. He was inserted into the starting lineup in Game 5 and was the primary defender against the engine of the Pacers’ offense in Tyrese Haliburton, who scored just 13 points on the night. McBride still thinks he has room for improvement. “I think I’ve got to go up a level,” McBride said. “… Obviously he didn’t go scoreless, and he was still impactful in a way, so my goal is for guys to go scoreless and to make as minimum of an impact on the game.” McBride finished Game 6 as the team’s second-highest scorer, with only Jalen Brunson (31 points) exceeding McBride’s 20 points.
- Josh Hart exited Game 6 in the fourth quarter with what the team called abdominal soreness and didn’t return, according to the team (Twitter link). Hart left the game a couple times due to injury, going to the locker room after the first quarter and again later in the game. The severity is unclear — considering the Knicks were trailing significantly at the time, it’s possible this was more of a precautionary move in order to preserve an important role player for Game 7 on Sunday.
Knicks Notes: McBride, Hartenstein, DiVincenzo, Anunoby, Burks
After losing back-to-back games in Indiana, the Knicks made a lineup change ahead of Game 5, inserting Miles McBride into Precious Achiuwa‘s spot in the starting five. As Ian Begley of SNY.tv writes, the move paid major dividends.
The Knicks outscored the Pacers by 26 points during McBride’s 40 minutes on the court, and the extra spacing afforded by his presence gave Jalen Brunson more room to operate — the Knicks star took advantage by scoring a series-high 44 points in the blowout victory. McBride was also one of the primary defenders on Pacers guard Tyrese Haliburton, who contributed just 13 points and five assists on the night.
“Huge,” Donte DiVincenzo said of McBride’s impact, per Begley. “Offensively, spacing the floor, being aggressive. And defensively making it hell full court, denying it. Being able to be in help and get back. He was special tonight.”
Despite using a smaller lineup, with the 6’2″ McBride replacing the 6’8″ Achiuwa, the Knicks dominated the game inside. They outscored Indiana by a 62-36 margin in the paint and grabbed 53 rebounds (20 offensive) compared to just 29 (five offensive) for the Pacers. Seventeen of those rebounds, including 12 offensive boards, went to Isaiah Hartenstein, who said playing “physical” basketball was a priority for him heading into Tuesday’s game.
“I feel like the games in Indiana, I wasn’t playing like myself, wasn’t physical,” Hartenstein said, according to Peter Botte of The New York Post. “I was letting them kind of play how I play, so just coming in, that was the biggest thing I wanted to do.”
Here’s more on the Knicks as they prepare to head back to Indianapolis with a 3-2 series lead:
- DiVincenzo and Myles Turner got into a brief altercation in the third quarter of Tuesday’s game and had to be separated (Twitter video link). After DiVincenzo threw down a big dunk, he came back up the court and attempted to fight through a Turner screen, but got called for a foul. According to Brian Lewis of The New York Post, Turner seemed to take exception with an elbow to the gut from the Knicks wing on the play. “They were trying to be tough guys. And that’s not their identity, and there’s nothing more to that,” DiVincenzo told reporters after the game. “I don’t agree with trying to walk up on somebody. … Nobody is going to fight in the NBA. So take the foul, keep it moving. You’re not a tough guy. Just keep it moving.”
- Head coach Tom Thibodeau said on Tuesday that injured forward OG Anunoby (hamstring strain) was doing some “light work” on the court, as Begley tweets. However, in a pregame TNT segment, sideline reporter Chris Haynes (Twitter video link) suggested that Anunoby is probably a long shot to play again in this series, stating that a potential return for the Eastern Conference Finals is more likely.
- After not playing in any of the Knicks’ first seven games of the playoffs, Alec Burks has emerged as a reliable rotation piece since Anunoby went down, scoring 14, 20, and 18 points in his past three games. “He’s been giving us huge minutes this series,” Josh Hart said (story via Botte). “He’s a true professional, someone who’s staying ready. You see him every day working hard, getting his shots up. That’s what pros do. When they’re not in the rotation they continue to get better, continue to stay ready. When his number was called he came out and provided for us when we desperately needed it. He’s a true pro, someone who we’re going to continue to rely on for those minutes.”