Paolo Banchero Cleared To Return For Magic
Magic forward Paolo Banchero has been upgraded to available for Friday’s game vs. Miami, the team announced today (via Twitter). It will be the first time Banchero has played since November 12.
Banchero, who has missed Orlando’s past 10 games due to a left groin strain, was initially listed on Thursday as questionable for Friday’s matchup between division rivals.
In 11 healthy games this season before he was injured in his 12th outing, Banchero averaged 23.3 points, 9.1 rebounds, and 4.3 assists in 34.7 minutes per contest. His shooting line was a modest .466/.250/.761, and the Magic have been a little better with him off the court (+5.1 net rating) than on it (+2.6) so far this fall. However, the team – which has gone 12-5 after a 1-4 start – isn’t worried about reincorporating the 2024 All-Star.
“He’s a very smart basketball player,” teammate Jalen Suggs said of Banchero last week. “… He’ll come back into the fold and jell well with us because that’s our brother. Regardless of how we’ve been playing while he’s been off, we want him on the court. And we’re better when he’s on the court.”
While the Magic will be getting back one of their top offensive weapons for Friday’s game, the Heat will likely be without one of their leading scorers. Guard Tyler Herro is listed as doubtful due to right big toe irritation and will undergo an MRI on the injury on Saturday, tweets Anthony Chiang of The Miami Herald.
The good news for Miami is that Norman Powell (left ankle sprain) has been upgraded to available after sitting out Wednesday’s loss to Dallas. Powell has led the Heat with 25.0 points per game through his first 17 appearances.
Heat Notes: Roster Spot, Powell, Wiggins, Jovic, Mitchell
The Heat will have the ability to sign a 15th man without surpassing the luxury tax line as of December 13, but there are many factors the team will need to consider before doing so, Ira Winderman writes for the South Florida Sun Sentinel.
Miami will have to weigh the likelihood of Tyler Herro qualifying for his performance-based contract incentives, which are looking increasingly out of reach, as the shooting guard is only one missed game from being ruled ineligible for All-NBA.
The team is also in an uncertain position when it comes to the contract of Terry Rozier, who is currently on leave from the league due to his involvement in the FBI’s gambling probe. In ordinary circumstances, the Heat could waive Rozier on or before January 7 in order to recoup the $1.6MM non-guaranteed portion of his salary, but Winderman writes that it’s unclear if the league will allow them to do that while he’s on leave.
The Heat have also had a hot start to the season and sit at third in the East coming into Wednesday’s slate of games, meaning they may not feel any urgency to navigate those obstacles and add a new player.
We have more from the Heat:
- Norman Powell is doing his best to play through the groin strain that sidelined him for a game last week and will cause him to miss Wednesday night’s matchup against the Mavs, writes Winderman in a separate piece. “I’m not fully healthy,” Powell admitted. “I haven’t been fully healthy in a couple of games.” However, Powell said that the team doctors don’t think he’s been making the injury worse by playing. “They think it can still heal while I’m playing,” he said. “It’s managing it, and if something is too uncomfortable or whatever, then letting them know.” Powell had previously missed time with a right groin strain, but he said that the current injury is in a different place.
- Andrew Wiggins isn’t the loudest player in the Heat’s locker room, but he has been leading by example this season, Winderman writes. “I get the job done and I do whatever I can to help the team win,” he said. “I know every night’s going to be different. Some nights might be more scoring. Some nights might be my rebounding. Depending on whatever the team needs, I’m here and I’m going to try and do it.” On a team that has prioritized a well-distributed offensive attack, teammates are impressed with Wiggins’ approach, according to Winderman. “Wiggs is amazing,” Powell said. “He’s quiet, he’s to himself, but he works. He knows the game. He has a versatile skill set. I think he flies under the radar. He’s always quiet and he gets the job done.”
- Nikola Jovic‘s play has been one of the few disappointing aspects of an otherwise better-than-expected season for the Heat, and he’s aware that he’s not performing liked he wants to, writes Anthony Chiang of the Miami Herald. “I know that I’m not playing great basketball right now, and that’s the thing that bothers me for sure,” he said. Jovic was conscious of saying the right things about being happy that the team is succeeding despite his struggles, but head coach Erik Spoelstra knows he needs more from the talented forward. “Our ceiling goes so much higher when there’s a consistency to Niko’s game,” Spoelstra said. “He’s extremely versatile on both ends of the court when he’s really locked in, paying attention to details, giving the maximum effort.” Spoelstra adds that attention to detail is crucial, as is getting back into a rhythm after missing some time with an injury.
- Davion Mitchell, who re-signed with Miami on a two-year, $24MM deal this past offseason, is repaying the Heat’s faith in him by turning into one of the steadiest point guards in the league in terms of assist-to-turnover ratio, Chiang writes, noting that only T.J. McConnell and Tim Hardaway Jr. have a better statistical profile in that regard this season.”He really helps what we’re trying to do,” Spoelstra said. “He feels the momentum of the game, and then he has that feel that all great point guards have of getting guys open shots to really extend the lead.” Mitchell, for his part, says the change came when he stopped trying to force things so much. “When I first got here, I was thinking a little bit,” he said. “Obviously, I tried to do what I do on the defensive end, but offensively, I was still trying to find what I can do for this team. But now, it’s like I’m not even out there thinking. I’m just out there making plays and just kind of just free flowing.”
Nikola Jokic, Cade Cunningham Earn Player Of The Month Honors
Nuggets center Nikola Jokic and Pistons guard Cade Cunningham are the NBA’s Players of the Month for October/November, earning the honor for the Western and Eastern Conference, respectively, per an announcement from the league (Twitter link).
It’s the ninth time that Jokic has won a Player of the Month award over the course of his 11-year career. He earned it in this case with a superlative start to the season that saw him comfortably average a triple-double – 28.9 points, 12.4 rebounds, and 10.9 assists per game – while leading Denver to a 14-5 record.
Jokic’s shooting percentages were arguably even more remarkable than his per-game averages, as he shot 63.7% from the field and converted 45.3% of his three-point attempts.
The Nuggets star came out on top of a competitive field that included nominees like fellow MVP candidates Shai Gilgeous-Alexander of the Thunder and Luka Doncic of the Lakers. Clippers guard James Harden, Rockets center Alperen Sengun, Trail Blazers forward Deni Avdija, Lakers guard Austin Reaves, and Timberwolves guard Anthony Edwards were also nominated for Player of the Month in the West, according to the NBA (Twitter link).
In the East, meanwhile, Cunningham’s Pistons have been one of the most pleasant surprises of the season’s first six weeks. While Detroit was viewed as a strong playoff contender, few NBA observers expected the team to win 16 of its first 20 games and sit atop the Eastern Conference at the end of November.
Cunningham was the driving force behind the Pistons’ hot start, averaging 28.8 points, 9.4 assists, and 6.4 rebounds in 36.8 minutes per game across 17 outings, while shooting 45.6% from the floor and 81.5% from the free throw line.
Raptors forward Scottie Barnes, Celtics wing Jaylen Brown, Bulls guard Josh Giddey, Hawks forward Jalen Johnson, Sixers guard Tyrese Maxey, Cavaliers guard Donovan Mitchell, Heat guard Norman Powell, Magic forward Franz Wagner, and Knicks teammates Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns were also nominated for Eastern Conference Player of the Month, which Cunningham won for the first time in his career.
Clippers Notes: Struggles, Powell, Harden, Zubac
The Clippers went just 2-13 in November, making it one of the worst months in franchise history, writes Law Murray of The Athletic. As Murray observes, the Clippers have had 13 or more losses in a month in the past, but none of the other versions of the team that achieved that ignominious feat had the sort of expectations entering the season that this one did.
Injuries have resulted in the Clippers relying on certain players more than they wanted to, Murray notes, with John Collins and Kris Dunn having entered the starting lineup in recent weeks despite head coach Tyronn Lue determining before the season that he preferred having both players coming off the bench.
Many of the Clippers’ offseason additions also haven’t worked out as expected. Center Brook Lopez and point guard Chris Paul have very much shown their age and have fallen out the rotation, while shooting guard Bradley Beal suffered a hip injury that will sideline him for the rest of the season.
A defense anchored by Ivica Zubac was one of L.A.’s strengths last season, when the team finished third in defensive rating. However, the Clippers have plummeted to 27th in that category this season, according to Murray, who writes that the club doesn’t get back on defense, doesn’t defend three-pointers or rebound well, and doesn’t force turnovers.
Here’s more on the struggling Clippers:
- The Clippers’ December began the same way their November did — with a loss at the hands of the Heat, led by former Clipper Norman Powell. Powell scored a team-high 30 points on 12-of-18 shooting and was a +33 in his 32 minutes on the court, as his former club fell to 5-16 on the season. “I would have never guessed that they were going to be 5-16 and where they’re at right now,” Powell said after the game, per Tim Reynolds of The Associated Press.
- As Reynolds details, after the Heat opened the second half on a 9-0 run on Monday, Lue pulled his entire starting five just 86 seconds into the third quarter. Four of those five players eventually got back into the game, but James Harden – who had five turnovers and was a -39 in 20 minutes – didn’t return. According to Reynolds, Lue entered the post-game interview room almost immediately after the game ended, didn’t see anyone there, and left, so there wasn’t an opportunity to ask him about the lineup decision.
- As bad as the season has gone for the Clippers, they’re in a decent position to pivot away from their current roster if they’re not able to turn things around in the coming weeks, writes Yossi Gozlan of The Third Apron (Substack link). While the Clippers don’t control several of their own draft picks in the next few years – including, most notably, the 2026 first-round pick they owe the Thunder – they also don’t have any long-term salary obligations on their books and could probably extract solid value for some of their veterans on the trade market. Zubac, in particular, would be a very popular target, given his age (28) and team-friendly contract (three years, $58.7MM).
Heat Notes: Powell, Herro, Starters, Rotation, Spoelstra
Veteran wing Norman Powell almost immediately felt at home with the Heat after being acquired in an offseason trade, writes Mirin Fader of The Athletic. The 32-year-old is having a career year in his first season with Miami, averaging 24.5 points, 3.9 rebounds, 2.3 assists and 1.3 steals on .494/.441/.884 shooting through 15 games (30.4 minutes per contest).
“I don’t mean to say anything in the wrong way, but this is like the purest form of basketball that I’ve played in a long time where you got no schemes of like, we’re trying to get this player going every single time down,” Powell said. “We’re playing in the flow, we’re playing for each other, we’re playing basketball the right way, we’re competing on both sides of the floor.”
Heat coaches and players admire that Powell continues to push himself to get better in his 11th NBA season, Fader adds.
“He has an open mind,” says Wayne Ellington, a Heat assistant coach and former NBA player. “He wants to learn and continue to grow even though he had a great experience already. … He always listens and is super coachable.”
Here’s more on the Heat:
- Tyler Herro shined once again on Wednesday after a stellar season debut on Monday, observes Barry Jackson of The Miami Herald. The 25-year-old guard finished with 29 points (on 9-of-15 shooting), seven assists and five rebounds in 32 minutes in the win over Milwaukee. “I’m just trying to play off the catch,” he said. “I did that last year as well, and then that’s what I’m doing right now. I’m just trying to play off the catch and trying to create advantages in transition where I can get downhill or get to my spot before the defense gets set. And then in the half court, I’m just trying to make the right play. I feel like as I get my legs and my feet under me, I’m going to be able to play-make more and get into the paint more. I still have to strengthen my foot and feel fully comfortable jumping off my foot and exploding off my foot. It’s going to be a process for a couple weeks until I can fully feel comfortable.”
- With a fully healthy roster on Wednesday, head coach Erik Spoelstra suggested the starting lineup might be matchup-based going forward, with the rotation remaining fluid as well, per Ira Winderman of The South Florida Sun Sentinel. As Winderman notes, second-year center Kel’el Ware was moved to the second unit after starting nine of the past 10 games, while forward Nikola Jovic wasn’t part of the 10-man rotation in his first game back from a right hip injury. “None of it will be in cement and I don’t feel pressure to make it cement, whether it’s the starting lineup or whether it’s the rotation once we get into the bench,” Spoelstra said. “I’ve said it since the first day of training camp, we feel that our depth is one of our best strengths and we want to weaponize that.”
- Wednesday’s win was the 800th of Spoelstra’s carer, making him the 17th coach in league history to reach that threshold, Winderman relays in another story. “It hasn’t sunk in yet, because I wasn’t aware of it,” Spoelstra said after the team’s sixth straight win. “But yeah, I guess it’s fitting that it comes on the eve of Thanksgiving. Like, I just feel incredible gratitude for this organization and all of these years, where the years are going by so fast. I’m having a hell of a time. I love what I do, I love coaching, I love this profession, I love working for this organization, I love working for, and with, amazing players and staff, like we have — too many to count over the years.”
Heat Notes: Herro, Offense, Powell, Ware
The Heat didn’t miss a beat with 2025 All-Star guard Tyler Herro back in their lineup for the first time this season on Monday, registering their fifth consecutive victory and their eighth win in the past 10 games to improve to 12-6 on the year. Herro, who was making his season debut following ankle surgery, scored a team-high 24 points and made a key basket to help clinch the win over Dallas in the game’s final minute.
“It’s amazing that he can come back and have that kind of rhythm, and that’s only going to get better,” Heat head coach Erik Spoelstra told reporters, including ESPN’s Tim MacMahon, in his post-game media session. “When you face better defenses, you can see why we need that skill. You need as much skill and firepower as possible in this league. And it was just exciting to have him back.”
Playing in the Heat’s new uptempo offense for the first time, Herro needed a quarter to knock off some rust, but it didn’t take long for him to get comfortable. As MacMahon notes, after missing his first four attempts from the floor, Herro knocked down 12 of his last 14 shots.
“You see it out there, man,” Heat star Bam Adebayo said when asked about Herro’s fit in the new system. “We got a lot of guys that’s hard to guard off the catch. As you see, it’s a fun offense to be part of. It’s not a lot of pick-and-rolls, but it’s sharing the game. … Everyone feels involved, everyone gets a chance to be aggressive, and we’re being successful off of it.”
“It’s not an adjustment for him in terms of how we play,” Spoelstra added. “He’s going to fit right in. He’s going to amplify everything we’re doing.
Miami currently leads the NBA in both pace (106.14 possessions per 48 minutes) and points per game (123.9).
Here’s more on the Heat:
- Herro admitted after Monday’s win that he’s “still got a long way to go” before he feels like he’s back to 100%, per Anthony Chiang of The Miami Herald. “I still got to rehab, recover,” Herro said. “I easily could have probably waited another two weeks to come back, but I’m healthy enough to be out there, and I want to be out there. So that was most important to me. I kind of circled this date probably three or four weeks ago. And then I was like, ‘I’m ready. Forget it, I’m ready.’ I took the last couple days when the team was on the road just to prepare my body for tonight, and it was a lot of fun to go out there and compete and ultimately win.”
- Norman Powell, the Heat’s leading scorer so far this season, was held out of Monday’s game and underwent an MRI on his left groin injury. However, that MRI showed only a “mild” strain and Spoelstra said the team’s level of concern “is not super high,” according to Chiang (Twitter links). Initially considered day-to-day, Powell is expected to return to action for Miami on Wednesday vs. Milwaukee, tweets Tim Reynolds of The Associated Press.
- Kel’el Ware, who has averaged 15.9 points and 15.1 rebounds per game in his past eight outings, is earning praise from teammates and coaches alike for his recent play, according to Chiang. Before Ware could respond to a reporter’s question on Sunday about whether he’s playing the best basketball of his career, Powell interrupted to answer for him: “No. More to come. A lot more potential, man. Stock rising.”
- Spoelstra, who challenged Ware in both the Summer League and preseason to do more to consistently impact winning, praised the second-year big man for being “much more intentional” and “stacking up good day after good day,” as Chiang relays. “He’s playing meaningful minutes,” Spoelstra said. “He understands the responsibility to play well. And he’s recognizing if it doesn’t go well, what he needs to correct. That’s a big-time improvement from last year, where he wasn’t really recognizing what was happening.”
Gilgeous-Alexander, Mitchell Named Players Of The Week
Thunder guard Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Cavaliers guard Donovan Mitchell have been named the NBA’s Players of the Week for the Western and Eastern Conference, respectively, the league announced today (Twitter links).
Gilgeous-Alexander led the defending champions to four wins during the week of November 17-23 while averaging 31.0 points and 6.5 assists per contest and shooting 60% from the field and 64.3% from beyond the arc. Oklahoma City was +82 in SGA’s 125 minutes on the court last week.
Gilgeous-Alexander also earned Player of the Week honors three weeks ago and is the second repeat winner of the award this season, joining Nuggets center Nikola Jokic.
Mitchell posted averages of 31.8 points, 6.3 rebounds and 5.0 assists per game as the Cavaliers went 3-1 this past week. He opened and closed the week with matching 37-point performances against the Bucks and Clippers, going 14-of-22 from the field in each of those two outings.
Santi Aldama (Grizzlies), Luka Doncic (Lakers), De’Aaron Fox (Spurs), James Harden (Clippers) and Jokic (Nuggets) were the other Western Conference nominees for Player of the Week.
Jalen Duren (Pistons), Josh Giddey (Bulls), Brandon Ingram (Raptors), Kon Knueppel (Hornets), Tyrese Maxey (Sixers), Norman Powell and Kel’el Ware (Heat), Ryan Rollins (Bucks) and Franz Wagner (Magic) were also nominated in the East.
Southeast Notes: Diabate, Johnson, Powell, Herro, Sarr, Bagley
While the Hornets are off to a disappointing start this season, having won just four of their first 15 games, their depth in the middle hasn’t been as big a problem as it looked like it might be entering training camp. After trading Mark Williams and Jusuf Nurkic over the summer, Charlotte has gotten impressive production from rookie Ryan Kalkbrenner, who has started 14 games and is leading the NBA with an 81.1% field goal percentage.
Former second-round pick Moussa Diabate, meanwhile, has been one of the league’s most effective backups, with 10.1 points, 8.2 rebounds, and 1.4 blocks in 22.9 minutes per game. Despite his modest role, Diabate ranks third in the NBA with 62 offensive rebounds, behind only Donovan Clingan and Steven Adams. But the big man’s impact goes beyond those offensive boards, according to head coach Charles Lee.
“Offensively, he’s grown (from) being more than just an offensive rebounder,” Lee said, per Roderick Boone of The Charlotte Observer. “I think that his screening has gotten a lot better, understanding coverage solutions versus switching, versus center field. I also think that his adjustment off penetration — like working the dunker area — has gotten really good. He’s got good hands down there, so guys feel comfortable with some dump-offs.”
As Boone writes, Lee wore a shirt during a media session earlier this month that featured Diabate and the caption “Moose on the Loose.” The 23-year-old center responded with a smile when asked about that piece of apparel.
“It’s great,” Diabate said. “I’ve come far now. So, it’s just funny how quickly things can turn around, in the span of, what, a year and a half? I go from a two-way, not even thinking that I was going to play, thinking I’m being a G League the whole year. Literally just damn near got cut by the Clippers to now having a shirt (worn) by one of the NBA head coaches. So, it’s a great feeling. It’s a blessing, and I’m just happy to be able to keep it going.”
We have more from around the Southeast:
- Hawks forward Jalen Johnson spoke to Marc J. Spears of Andscape about how getting a “reality check” in the G League during his first NBA season helped change his mindset and his trajectory as a pro. Johnson, who played just 120 total minutes in 22 games as a rookie in 2021/22, is now a rising star in year five, with averages of 22.3 points, 9.6 rebounds, 6.6 assists, and 1.8 steals per game so far this season, plus a shooting line of .580/.400/.812.
- Heat swingman Norman Powell, who missed three games earlier in the season due to a right groin strain, exited Friday’s contest early with a left groin strain. However, he was able to return to action and finish the game, then downplayed the issue after a Miami victory. “I saw the doctors and they’re not worried about it,” Powell said (Twitter link via Anthony Chiang of The Miami Herald). “They don’t think it can get any worse. So it’s all about pain tolerance. I have a high pain tolerance, so I’m not too worried about it.”
- With the Heat on a roll (six wins in eight games) and Tyler Herro about to make his season debut, should there be any concerns about the guard’s fit in the lineup? Ira Winderman of The South Florida Sun Sentinel (subscription required) doesn’t think so, arguing that the return of an All-Star player should only make a good team better, even if it creates some tough lineup decisions.
- The Wizards were shorthanded in the frontcourt on Friday, as second-year center Alex Sarr missed a second consecutive game due to left big toe soreness (Twitter link). Marvin Bagley III, who started in Sarr’s place on Wednesday and played nearly 31 minutes, was also unavailable on Friday due to a right hip contusion. With two of their top big men out, the Wizards were out-rebounded 48-29 in a 30-point blowout loss to Toronto.
Heat Notes: Ware, Mitchell, Larsson, Smith, Rozier
After starting either Kel’el Ware or Nikola Jovic alongside Bam Adebayo early in the season, the Heat didn’t have either youngster in their starting five when Adebayo returned from a toe injury on Wednesday. Jovic remained sidelined with a hip issue, while Ware moved to the second unit after having started six consecutive games in Adebayo’s place.
As Barry Jackson of The Miami Herald writes, head coach Erik Spoelstra faces a difficult decision going forward on whether or not to start Ware and Adebayo together. While a smaller starting five is better suited to the fast-paced offensive style the Heat are deploying this season, the club has struggled on the glass with those smaller lineups.
Overall, Miami ranks 26th in rebounding percentage, including 29th in defensive rebounding percentage. Ware is an asset in that department, having averaged 10.0 rebounds in just 24.3 minutes per game through the first month of the season. In 19 minutes off the bench on Wednesday, he racked up 16 boards, though the team was still out-rebounded 62-52 by Golden State.
Spoelstra’s starting lineup decisions may ultimately come down to game-by-game matchups, though he’ll have fewer options at his disposal this weekend, with Andrew Wiggins out due to a hip injury and Tyler Herro not on track to make his season debut until Monday.
We have more on the Heat:
- There’s no expectation that red-hot shooting guard Norman Powell will come out of the starting lineup when Herro returns, according to Jackson and Anthony Chiang of The Miami Herald. Both Herald reporters expect either Davion Mitchell or Pelle Larsson to move to the bench to make room for Herro.
- Chiang adds that Dru Smith is a candidate to lose his spot in the Heat’s rotation once Herro is back and the team is fully healthy, though he cautions that’s not a given. While Smith’s production has been relatively modest (6.1 points and 3.3 assists in 17.1 minutes per game), the 27-year-old is playing good defense and Miami has a +8.1 net rating when he plays, compared to just +0.2 when he’s not on the floor.
- The Heat still haven’t received clarity from the NBA on whether or not they can include Terry Rozier‘s expiring $26.6MM contract in a trade for salary-matching purposes, writes Ira Winderman of The South Florida Sun Sentinel (subscription required). Rozier was placed on leave by the league after being arrested as part of an FBI investigation into illegal gambling.
- If Miami knew Rozier couldn’t be used in a trade, the team would almost certainly consider waiving him, Chiang writes, since only $24.9MM of his salary is guaranteed. That means the Heat could create $1.7MM in flexibility under the tax line and sign a replacement player if they were to cut the veteran guard.
Tyler Herro Targeting Monday For Season Debut
Tyler Herro is nearing his return from the ankle surgery that has kept him sidelined since September, and is targeting the Heat‘s matchup against the Mavericks on Monday for his season debut, reports Tim Reynolds of The Associated Press (via Twitter).
Herro returned to practice last Sunday for the first time since the season began. Both he and head coach Erik Spoelstra spoke previously about their confidence that the star shooting guard will be able to fit in smoothly with the team’s new offensive approach, which has dramatically de-emphasized pick-and-rolls in favor of quick drive-and-kick attacks.
Herro is coming off his first All-Star season with the Heat, as he averaged 23.9 points, 5.5 assists, and 5.2 rebounds per game while shooting 37.5% from three in 2024/25. He took on a large portion of the team’s ball-handling responsibility last season, and it will be interesting to see how he can adjust to the team’s new pace, as well as the acquisition of fellow shooting guard Norman Powell from the Clippers this Summer.
Powell, so far this season, has improved on last season’s career-best performance. In 11 games this season heading into Wednesday night, he has averaged 25.5 points while shooting a blistering 46.1% on three-point tries. While those numbers will likely drop as the season goes on, Powell has been an elite shooter throughout his NBA tenure, shooting 40.0% on 2,735 career three-point attempts over 11 seasons.
It’s unclear whether the overlap in Powell and Herro’s skill sets will result in one of them coming off the bench (Herro was the Sixth Man of the Year in the 2021/22 season), or if Davion Mitchell will be the one who ends up being moved to the second unit.
Mitchell has done a good job organizing the Heat’s offense this season, averaging 7.4 assists per game in 14 outings, all starts, while adding 10.8 points per night and playing tenacious on-ball defense, which isn’t a strength for Herro or Powell.